00;00;00;16 - 00;00;29;12 Speaker 1 Welcome to the Science and Engineering Library. Very glad that you are all here and that you are able to celebrate Open Access Week with us today. So thank you for being here. Bathrooms are right around the corner outside. There's refreshments. Please make yourself at home and and comfortable. So this year's Open Access Week theme is Open for Climate Justice, which endeavors to bring together the International Open Access Community and the global climate movement. 00;00;30;02 - 00;00;55;28 Speaker 1 Access to knowledge is a human right. Tackling the climate crisis requires rapid access to knowledge across disciplinary, economic and geographic boundaries, which is exactly what the open access movement itself, now 30 years old, has endeavored to do. The libraries have been strong advocates for open access for more than a decade, and the University's Carbon Zero initiative and programmatic investment in sustainability beautifully fit steam. 00;00;56;24 - 00;01;24;13 Speaker 1 On Monday, the libraries opened our Open Access Week activities with a keynote address by Micah Vandegrift, senior user experience strategist at the NIH. All of US Research Program and long time advocate for open scholarship. His talk touched on the evolution of the Open Access movement from a focus on opening access to publications to the active practices of open science that are becoming the norm and fresh directions in U.S. research policy. 00;01;25;03 - 00;01;52;21 Speaker 1 Here he's referring to the recent Office of Science and Technology Policy Nelson Memorandum that reiterates and extends the government's commitment to providing access to taxpayer supported research and ensuring that access is realized in a timely fashion. Throughout this week, the libraries have offered workshops on orchids and on predatory publishing. We have given out open access, fortune cookies and 3D printed water sites that you should all take and enjoy. 00;01;54;11 - 00;02;21;15 Speaker 1 And I do want to point out here and Christine, if you could just if we could just acknowledge the work that you have done in architecting this entire we are tireless. So communication librarian at the libraries. So today we continue the conversation about open access and climate justice with two scholars who actively integrate open scholarship practices into their work and whose aim is to address the inequities, impacts of climate change. 00;02;22;13 - 00;02;40;01 Speaker 1 The inequities. The inequitable impacts of climate change. So Justin Richardson and Karen Asher, thank you. We're so glad that you're here with us today. So we're going to begin with Justin. And Justin is assistant professor in the Department of Geosciences. 00;02;40;11 - 00;03;05;23 Speaker 2 Correct. Talking about what do I do and research wise, and how do I want to try and implement some action toward climate justice? I do biogeochemistry. Biogeochemistry is my focus. Research is an interesting field in which we're linking everything from the atmosphere. Lithosphere, all the rock and minerals to the biosphere, all the trees, plants, agriculture, the water that we drink, the hydro sphere, and we look at it through a chemical lens. 00;03;05;23 - 00;03;34;01 Speaker 2 So it's movement of elements across all the different spheres. And all of these foods all interact with the climate because of the cycling of carbon and storage and carbon and all the processes that either allow for carbon sequestration or the release of carbon into the environment. So I talk a myriad of problems, everything from toxicity to metals, from releasing nutrient cycling and forceful mitigation of atmospheric pollutants, and then also a lot of these feedbacks. 00;03;34;10 - 00;03;57;04 Speaker 2 So what are the potential changes that will occur as forests change or moisture, precipitation changes, temperatures? So one of the big things in biogeochemistry is the access to data, the data powered biogeochemistry and the research. So we're using a lot of different types of data. We're using hydrologic data. So continuous monitoring of flow and subsurface where water is. 00;03;57;15 - 00;04;21;01 Speaker 2 We're looking at atmospheric data, looking at temperature, air humidity. We're looking at soil bedrock. So how can we sequester carbon or how can bedrock release carbon or nitrogen? We're looking at vegetation because vegetation at a big captured and they create the sink and soils our measurement geophysical data. So how deep is the material on the surface of the earth for carbon sequestration? 00;04;21;01 - 00;04;44;02 Speaker 2 And then we use a lot of geochemistry data. So we have to measure carbon, right? We have to get that data. And all of this costs money. None of this is free. So right now there is a lot of publications going on. So in the left graph, looking at the total number of publications on the topic of biogeochemistry and we're almost at a thousand articles per year on this topic of biogeochemistry. 00;04;44;13 - 00;05;07;03 Speaker 2 And what's interesting is the number of open access publications actually getting to a threshold of 550 per year. So almost half the publications per year invited to share are some open access form. So that's really awesome. Within I've mentioned in the past 2030 years of open access, we're now creating a higher proportion of journals that people can read and access and not to go behind paywalls. 00;05;08;16 - 00;05;31;08 Speaker 2 Great. So from some of the work that I've been doing recently and we're good collaborators, we've identified some key problems to stop biogeochemistry data from being hidden away and tucked away and prevented from being accessible for new questions and research to tap into. So some of the first ones is being selfish. We are all a little bit selfish because we are our favorite person, I hope. 00;05;32;12 - 00;05;55;16 Speaker 2 And the first one is that people get selfish, they spend a lot of money, it costs millions of dollars, $100,000 to collect data per year to be able to access the samples. So there's not this incentive to create sharing, because if you get beaten to publishing on your own data, then you have basically been beaten down and billions of dollars of infrastructure and human labor that went into collecting that data. 00;05;57;01 - 00;06;19;00 Speaker 2 The second one is lost in translation. So data gets lost in translation because we all create data in our own unique way. And unfortunately, sometimes we create it. It's not usable or not comparable. So we get a bunch of apples and oranges and in Sanskrit and Latin where we can't necessarily read it and understand that last one is the pay to play aspect. 00;06;20;29 - 00;06;48;10 Speaker 2 Just before this, we were talking about capitalism ever so briefly. And, you know, it's important to pay people for their services and goods that they provide. But at one point, is it pay to play is getting in the way of being able to access data and have data repositories accessible. So just ever so briefly. Yeah. It's it's in the big data generators self-interest to be selfish because they're spending a lot of labor costs and specialized equipment. 00;06;48;10 - 00;07;06;15 Speaker 2 They're going to remote locations like Alaska or Golden Shield. But going out to Antarctica, it's a lot of money goes intuitive, you know, inevitably they should have the right to publish on it. But, you know, you can't sit on it forever. It is important to make data open so that people can ask new questions and be able to work on their stuff. 00;07;06;15 - 00;07;33;20 Speaker 2 And, you know, they worry about being cited. So we have to figure out how to move away from the scooping and not being cited as ways to justify selfishness. So open data can allow for researchers to ask you questions. So it's important to recognize that data are intellectual contributions and of themselves. We should, as researchers, be able to say, here's a data set, and that should still carry the same weight as a publication because we put so much labor and energy into it. 00;07;34;09 - 00;07;58;26 Speaker 2 No solution is if we can't do grassroots and top down. The President Biden administration said that data is coming from federally funded research and that should be open to the American public because we own it. We paid for it. So with the lost in translation aspect is that we collect a lot of data. And one thing that my research field has identified is that the difficulty in both data discoveries and harmonization. 00;07;59;03 - 00;08;21;18 Speaker 2 So the difficulty in addressing regional and global questions, because we all focus on using really specific methodology to our areas. So then the multiplicity of different types of data and metadata, that becomes many different languages that we can't speak across. So there's resistance to use of structured data because everyone wants to be unique and they think their data cannot be put into certain boxes. 00;08;21;25 - 00;08;45;10 Speaker 2 So then that creates a large body of unusable data, unreadable data that others can't really tap into. So it's basically creating that data are lost, you know. So yeah, we've got to stop shoving square pegs into round holes. And so the solution to doing that is actually ask you to move towards standardized methods and making sure that we have standard protocols for our metadata. 00;08;45;10 - 00;09;07;23 Speaker 2 So everyone can understand what goes into creating our data. The last one is a pay to play incentive, which, you know, people want to get paid for their activities. So just as a quick example, the general data offered by MBI will host your data set for a small charge of 1,400 CHF. So how do we work so that people can get paid? 00;09;07;23 - 00;09;38;24 Speaker 2 But we as researchers should not have to pay for our data to be stored. So many repositories in biogeochemistry, there's over 55 of them and they have different requests about how to put your data on. So that's useful that people can find. It is understandable and that they can definitely feel comfortable using that data to approach new questions, especially when you have developing nations that don't have the resources to pay for new satellites and pay for new global imaging data. 00;09;39;02 - 00;09;58;14 Speaker 2 That, if they can't access, didn't find that data, then those researchers will not have the the justice aspect of being able to use that data to protect their own nation. So some of the solutions is is that curation costs money, right? That's why we have awesome librarians, because they make sure that our data and our books are usable and we can find them. 00;09;58;23 - 00;10;20;03 Speaker 2 So how do we make this burden shared? So we want to have researchers be able to use standardized curation methods and made metadata, make sure that all the data is searchable, findable and usable. And then a second solution is that we have over 55 different repositories. If you revise your accounts, where do you find data? And they all have some overlap to that extent. 00;10;20;15 - 00;10;40;08 Speaker 2 So we want to make sure that we move away from just kind of dispersed systems and build grander systems to be more greater than the sum of our parts, our individual parts. So we want to work towards systems that have libraries that are free and supported by the community, but not by the individuals themselves, because that is a barrier for making data. 00;10;40;21 - 00;11;10;01 Speaker 2 Okay. So that's my short spiel on open data and Biogeochemistry and the world I work in. So yeah, we have to work on incentivization and recognizing that creating data is just as important as writing paper standardizing methods so we can not have data lost in translation. And then through changing management. So how do we make sure that standard protocols for our metadata and make sure that curation doesn't go all on our librarians, both in physical form and digital? 00;11;10;23 - 00;11;12;14 Speaker 2 So that's all right. Thank you. 00;11;12;24 - 00;11;37;23 Speaker 1 You. And before we go into questions, I think what I'd like is to hold questions to the end so that we can have a larger discussion together. And so I'm going to open it over to here in Azure. That's the Department of Women's Science. Thank you all for coming, especially my students. You're only happy life, and that's why we're here. 00;11;38;28 - 00;12;08;24 Speaker 1 And thank you so much, Christine, and thank you to all which is happy to have actually helped you to have a discussion. So I'm a former scientist still assigned and so my earlier work with you not only slides suggesting how about collecting data. And so a lot of my work was atmospheric data, hydrological data. And as folks know in science it's 99% population and 1%. 00;12;08;24 - 00;12;32;17 Speaker 1 It's very difficult for them to space. But today and again, I didn't know what the audience was. I'm going to quickly sort of show you a bunch of slides and then we can open up to questions as 20 slides of them, far too many for 10 minutes slot. In the first ten slides. I'm sort of talking a little bit about how talking about climate justice is. 00;12;34;07 - 00;13;08;23 Speaker 1 If you want to open for climate justice, you have to be thinking about that. Are thinking about climate justice as a subset of how linked to the struggles of justice. Science is not outside of other kinds of struggles, other kinds of politics. So not only is the issue of many countries in the world which can't have access to the big end and part of the reason why many of us come to the U.S. to study, but a lot of the guys I go to collected in places have copies of hundreds. 00;13;08;23 - 00;13;36;28 Speaker 1 And that two days ago there was an amazing talk by some historian who is talking about the Human Genome Project, which is a project in which they have collected something in populations across the world, this country. And again, what is going to be done with that of money is capital. So moving quickly and then you can have a conversation. 00;13;37;12 - 00;14;07;27 Speaker 1 This could, of course, also be property rights. This is my mother, something I was 1991 when was in the Amazon and she used to make us to have to tax. But she told me to start from scratch, from collecting the land. So we have this plot to collect, stripping it and each drawing it to cutting it to collect sizes on each half that she makes and there's no details on this have different designs and we have the most amazing, amazing means. 00;14;08;11 - 00;14;38;24 Speaker 1 Of course, in the United States to design this. You would put the name of her design. You would cut of intellectual property in this technological I'm moving off script. So some parameters of my definition of climate justice, right? What do we mean by climate justice? Justice. Justice. So just a few things, right? It's not it's not a comprehensive list, but deep analytical, ethical and political commitments to more just natural cultural roots. 00;14;38;26 - 00;15;15;08 Speaker 1 And again, we can talk about what natural cultural moments in science and social science of the world of nature and culture separate. But as the feminist science and technology scholar something went from the sciences to the to find that, you know, the world that I was studying in three separate kinds of things is actually deeply so analytical, ethical commitments to thinking about these things together, informed by and in critical solidarity the range of radical political traditions feminist, black, queer, indigenous, anti-colonial. 00;15;15;08 - 00;15;58;11 Speaker 1 I just and that that slide you'll see along the naturals quote come from with the lessons that feminists come to. That's really important. So anyone is thinking about climate justice. One really needs to be thinking about justice in a broader sense, at least in my mind. That is and it's not a personal definition. It's broader definition to relate to nonviolent struggles across government, from history to the present that needs to be transnational sensitivity and alliances with movements for self-determination, land reform, social and reproductive justice, and of the things that are happening. 00;15;58;16 - 00;16;24;09 Speaker 1 Yeah, happen at the pace, not just right now, but across time. So now when I first moved to the Valley a long time ago, there used to be more tobacco farms and that I know that I feel right. But what does tobacco have to do with tobacco in Cuba like is tobacco. Yeah. Have to do with the Dominican Republic, things that are going on today that have deep connections to things that go on in other kinds of ways. 00;16;24;19 - 00;16;48;18 Speaker 1 And again, in the Valley, people often don't think about these things because it's supposed to be a progressive bastion, that we are on the forefront of everything. And we often tend to forget that we have been historically connected to all kinds of places. So again, that transnational sensibility in our lives is absolutely incredible. So mining, data mining, give me words. 00;16;49;28 - 00;17;16;16 Speaker 1 So what does mining data have to do with actual physical mining and how do they play out? Justice. So jumping to the specific topic, when we thinking about open access, we need to assess what we mean by access. And I was really happy for the workshop yesterday and Christine had met talking about the workshop, which is how do you think about these issues? 00;17;17;08 - 00;17;58;02 Speaker 1 Just because something is open access does not necessarily mean that it's it's by definition, equitable. How can access regenerate existing inequalities inequities. So access, open access. And since it's not climate justice, it's a very active process that we need to think about together is a it's like 0.7. It's complicated things. You put them on the slide and simplify them beyond definition, but avoid predatory publishers, which I mean, I heard that and be attentive to feminist and abolition and stuff. 00;17;58;02 - 00;18;28;22 Speaker 1 But one takeaway lesson from this that I can see in the next 10 minutes is just the attention. And again, what do I mean by that? That's just again, that's a short, short slogan. But part of the assessment is what do we mean by angry, critical? So here are two open access, assuming the open access side stepping out, that's one is kind of justice minister, California justice, and then there is one from the world economic justice. 00;18;29;01 - 00;18;59;14 Speaker 1 So one of you is working towards feminist innovation. Like that's not so much, but rather I'm taking my word for it. That would require work on my one of the so some of my writing in open access journals fantastic general podcast which I love to write to meet scientists who want to do something to this, especially Michigan chemistry functions. 00;18;59;26 - 00;19;30;05 Speaker 1 I see these and I put them there because again, the issue of agreed projecting, it's not just data, it's not just more publication, but they want these things come out whose work is recognized as legitimate, who is cited, what happens to it. So, so trained as a good scientist usually don't put yourself up. Yeah I'm especially I was born and raised in again to trained out the British model is you have to be very modest in models you have to do your actual assessment. 00;19;30;28 - 00;19;57;23 Speaker 1 So a few things which were super fun to write very different from. So a lot of a lot of these pieces are sort of my going back to my scientific work and then writing about it for a different kind of audience, which was a lot of work because I'm thinking of the politics of the country. So it's one of the journals that I'm going to to reference in this document that you can go to for back to issues of knowledge production that Justin has raised. 00;19;57;23 - 00;20;15;04 Speaker 1 Right. That we can go to this and and there's data, which is a form of knowledge. But what does it mean to think about it in a feminist kind of way? And what is from the science and technology studies do and why? It's one of the reasons I moved from the sciences to the social sciences. I think I'm still assigned to something. 00;20;15;04 - 00;20;36;13 Speaker 1 I see I'm a former scientist. I want to continue working with songs, but there are certain practices of science that that don't make sense. Right. So how does one build those connections? So some of this research on science and technology and science and knowledge production questions some of the positive ways of doing science data is data isn't always data. 00;20;36;25 - 00;21;06;10 Speaker 1 Who is collecting the data, what kind of data that we can standardize? It might come in one necessarily against standardization, but then it's extended by what standards? What's included, what's excluded, what are the parameters of thinking about this and the attention to the partial, partial nature of evidence and the unpredictable and very contingent nature of research like you go to do research, non-scientists will think that science gives you answers. 00;21;06;22 - 00;21;24;28 Speaker 1 But scientists, whatever you write at the end of the end of the scientific research project, you just come up with a different question. You don't come up with an answer. So it doesn't mean that you don't come up with an answer, but it's never an alternative. So it's always very unpredictable. It's very contingent, and that is something to pay attention to. 00;21;25;07 - 00;21;42;27 Speaker 1 And that's not necessarily feeling like a contingent result tells you something something different. Again, at this kind of moment in American politics, maybe for a long period of time, including on this campus, that this whole thing of we need solutions. We need solutions, you know, why is better? Why do you keep questioning things? What is so critical about things? 00;21;42;29 - 00;22;02;04 Speaker 1 Where is the synergy? It's like, well, it took a long time to mess up the world to say, this is what has happened. The world has been seriously messed up and now suddenly brown people impact people and men are going to be the ones who are going to be asked to fix it without any budgets. And, you know, no recognition other than that. 00;22;02;04 - 00;22;28;28 Speaker 1 Romanticize them and say it's beautiful knowledge that came from a script contest. The masculine wisdom assumption. This assumption is pervading fields from zoology. And it's to what I think assumptions behind some of these behind some of positions. I'm not talking about people being bad guys and good guys. It's just that again and I was trained, in fact, there are ways in which we are trained to think like we think in those particular kinds of ways. 00;22;28;28 - 00;22;58;00 Speaker 1 What are the histories of that kind of training and how do we keep replicating those forms? I think like so, so active protests constantly. Activists, feminist research on trends in the college productions opens up conversations about the meanings, productions, aspects and effects of scientific models. So really, if there's one solution, keeps conversations, open conversations. That, too, is hard in New England, people who don't talk to each other very much. 00;22;58;00 - 00;23;17;28 Speaker 1 And if you talk, you have to be very smart. So soon as you have an argument, Facebook sort of shut up. And I come from a culture. That argument is recreation. We do it. It's sort of like that's what you do. How are you? You know? And then and at the end of it and you're usually over me, I do have an argument and then you're going to go and have something to eat. 00;23;18;09 - 00;23;42;15 Speaker 1 And then and then you then have an argument and then you want to figure out what you're going to eat next with. But but so. So conversations over meals are important. If I have to have one solution to get scientists and social scientists together and let them have, you know, arguments over good food, why not? Okay. Again, it's not partially because it's like I'm assert that all knowledge is political. 00;23;43;07 - 00;24;05;16 Speaker 1 Knowledge is not outside of politics. Science is not outside of politics. We don't want it that way. But it is like it's in my power, my proof, your truth, my position, your position and pluralism doesn't always look. It's not that all positions look right. Race is a cultural conference, all right? Race is natural. This is not about two opinions that are equally valid. 00;24;05;18 - 00;24;25;18 Speaker 1 They not. So all knowledge is political. What does it mean to us? That one or the other? Right. And again, political is I'm saying that knowledge needs to be moved towards abolitionism so that I. How does one I will I have no idea how long I'm taking. I'm going to go through this. You're fine. So take another few minutes. 00;24;25;24 - 00;24;53;18 Speaker 1 Silence from the this insects on discipline. Some examples of how this works in a variety of different disciplines since I find I mean yes people speak multiple languages. I speak many, many languages, disciplinary and actual languages. So as a polyglot, my response is instead of translating, just learn many languages, right? Instead of just doing cross-disciplinary going to actually different kinds of disciplines. 00;24;53;18 - 00;25;21;10 Speaker 1 Why not? Right. That's what the role of the university is. So, so again, I'm saying this because I sort of jumped from many, many disciplines. And so I have examples of how friends look at these different disciplines and talk about novelty in geography. Currently, I'm masquerading as a general, which is why I have it's just academic disciplines all linked to the military and the territorial and imperialist patterns, right? 00;25;21;11 - 00;25;43;20 Speaker 1 A lot of guys do that and a large percentage of the U.S. data comes from the US military. If you want data from the Third World and tropical forests for ones who have it really at the Department of State, that's life. So it's important to know what you can't say. I look for every 80% of Texas funding comes from state data. 00;25;43;27 - 00;26;04;28 Speaker 1 Once you make it open, access can be used for a variety of different that's it's not new. So again, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be absolutely checked, but then we need to learn how to assess it. What is it going to be useful? Right. Like in one of the former departments that I was having was the guy I spoke to. 00;26;04;29 - 00;26;35;14 Speaker 1 The thing we need to put like all the folks living in that time and you collect a lot of data, but that can also turn into a technique of surveillance. Data is not data and how capital has been, which I can talk about a lot. I learned very late in my life, but now I'm going to get over that capital of systems of production, piggyback on how that monitoring systems pull back on each other. 00;26;35;24 - 00;27;02;04 Speaker 1 The capitalism is particularly particularly piggybacking on instructions and data is not free. But Google is collecting all that. It is collecting this data, right? We have data. So again, how in this particular moment that all of us share a lot of efficient distribution, so want turn on location services and I notice all these these search engines, which is great. 00;27;02;05 - 00;27;30;18 Speaker 1 It's been very good at not swearing in public, but it's an illusion, of course, the fact that it's private, it's not all of us have been displaced. So to think about how the inequities, how do we piggyback housing, how to piggyback on existing. So if you set up things on what it means to do some of this research, ask questions, disrupt dualism, nature, culture is one of those. 00;27;30;18 - 00;27;51;23 Speaker 1 Think about how these are constituent forms of power and representation. Reframed debates about science like this and I'm so grateful that Christine and Rebecca reminded me to come to this panel because, of course, again, structurally, we sit on the other side of the boundary. They'll sit on the side of the body. And we almost never crossed that bridge. 00;27;53;18 - 00;27;54;28 Speaker 1 That isn't actually a bridge. 00;27;57;06 - 00;28;19;21 Speaker 1 And then in the next set of slides, I have started with a few things, about four slides worth of sites that I find useful if I'm doing climate change research. I'm obviously endorsing both sides, but a bunch of different sites. But first one I endorse wholeheartedly and to put on my program on the editorial board of the Journal, that's why I endorse it. 00;28;20;03 - 00;28;42;02 Speaker 1 But I endorse it because the kinds of questions and discussions we have right now are very, very active parts of the editorial content. We discuss them. We try to give attention to them in every aspect of our work. This is not the journal, this is just the companion site and I'm going to you don't have to take photographs because this is going to be up on the left side. 00;28;42;03 - 00;29;08;29 Speaker 1 You can actually take a look at them. Acme is another critical geography journal that's part of open access, not MPI, very different from an API that has amazing, amazing things that are going on. And then there's a bunch of journals and websites that are leftist journals and websites because they think about issues of crime, injustice and capitalism. They're not feminist point again, thinking about these different parameters. 00;29;09;10 - 00;29;31;15 Speaker 1 And I don't believe in the cancel culture. As you know, I said you have to talk and that's I think even in popular culture it can be recreational unmasking arguments, but it's like after 50 plus years of living in New England that we haven't learned to talk about. All right. So the Hampshire College site used to be fantastic. 00;29;31;15 - 00;29;57;21 Speaker 1 We have a population and development program that now has moved, but their work is incredible to anybody who wants to do that. But as you just as I look at the links between climate justice and justice, and you must write because the kind of stuff that's done in the name of climate justice is incredibly sad. Some wonderful, wonderful science they have to do at colonial science, max, liberals outside that civic laboratory phenomenon. 00;29;58;05 - 00;30;35;28 Speaker 1 So examples and these are just some examples. This is hardly a comprehensive list. So I'm kind of talking about open access in a very broad sense that there is a lot of these issues of food policy. There's some tastic environmental justice. The Federal Atlas is one that spans anthropologists not doing so anyway. A bunch of they're not quite random sites, but they are idiosyncratic and curated by me and a whole bunch of apples. 00;30;36;05 - 00;30;59;02 Speaker 1 So speak and not the one from anthropology. That's really fantastic. Undisciplined environments, fantastic political ecology and that site. So all of these these aren't just focusing on climate justice in the narrow sense. But if you think about climate justice as a broader issues, then addressing all of those and also most of these sites are not sort of partizan sites. 00;30;59;02 - 00;31;39;23 Speaker 1 Frankly, justice is not this is not about being against science. It's about thinking about how one addresses these issues together. So that's where I'll leave it. The next set of slides, examples of how how not that feminism is considered in the scientific world that I looked in. Feminism is considered ideology and that you can do gender so that the examples of what happens when to do gender research but not as excellent, excellent comments. 00;31;39;23 - 00;32;02;24 Speaker 1 Thank you so much. And I think we have to do a lot to sort of mull over here. So I, I welcome we have any time for discussion and welcome any comments from anyone here or questions or items. And let's I have a couple of thoughts. Justin, thank you. You mentioned incentives. 00;32;03;00 - 00;32;04;09 Speaker 2 Yes. 00;32;04;09 - 00;32;05;26 Speaker 1 Can you give some examples? 00;32;06;07 - 00;32;28;05 Speaker 2 Absolutely. So where do I begin about incentives that you rant all day? So science is a scientist. Those who do science are incentivize by many reasons. First and foremost is money right to sustain oneself. You have in a capitalist society, you have to have money to pay for yourself. So that means that you you're going to be paid. 00;32;28;05 - 00;32;53;03 Speaker 2 You have to then have your keep. So that means that you have to do science and you should be fundable, because this next part is that way back in the 1940s, they were just money to pay for scientists at state institutions, to just do that for research. But after realizing that some of the sciences are doing so well and also recognizing that, hey, we're going to have some budget issues, it's like, okay, you have to now fight for money. 00;32;53;27 - 00;33;19;19 Speaker 2 So what was until like the 40 cities were fighting for money, writing grants actually became part of the packaging that we know now. So with incentivization is that we want to justify ourselves as scientists. So we have to write grants that get funded because that pays for our position. If university keeps the lights on and then to be able to do that justify that you're smart enough to be able to receive a grant so that you are recognized in your field. 00;33;19;19 - 00;33;45;23 Speaker 2 You have to publish papers. So the incentivization is that you need to publish to justify your expertize and to play the game as we have academia, publications, those are transactional currency to show that we can exchange ideas and a unit that is defined and usable so that incentivization publications and grants. But then there's also several other forms of incentivization that's a little bit more perverse, right? 00;33;46;01 - 00;34;07;09 Speaker 2 You have a sort of a vision for like peer review is not peer to peer review. It's there's someone who's seen as more knowledgeable to then review, work through their lens and they can say what's good or bad. And the review of like public grants is also, you know, through the lens of a reviewer. And those are typically more senior people. 00;34;07;09 - 00;34;28;01 Speaker 2 So, you know, there's a bit of the old being the young as and they can see the ideas and tell them and take what's good about that. So the of lots of other perverse incentives for self preservation because of course we like ourselves like it to selfishness. So what better way than to make sure that your ideas are loved by others and to take ideas that other people think is good? 00;34;28;20 - 00;34;54;26 Speaker 2 So there's a lot of incentivization that's not good. And that kind of grants and publications and then justifying your existence through your ideas and publications. So this atomization is very tough to deal with, right? Because you can't give a researcher carte blanche or else some will generate new ideas. But there's no form to challenge and require people to work harder or to innovate. 00;34;54;26 - 00;35;00;19 Speaker 2 That basically gets stagnant. So there's lots of tough issues and you probably do that. 00;35;01;14 - 00;35;39;18 Speaker 1 Well, I would argue against it because that's one way of thinking that was funded in the 1950s and it was science and exams are supposed to be fought by human good. So it means that it's publicly funded science. And right now the grants that you apply for going are coming from capitalist organizations that want to. That's a part of what they're saying is that you collect data, you read in lots of fine print that you can in fact, some of them might even say, you need to take our permission to publish, primarily because if you find that you've done research that showed that this drug that they came up with is actually not true, that 00;35;39;18 - 00;36;05;10 Speaker 1 is just a placebo. You might as well just because you're right, you can't publish. So I would say that there are this is part of what I mean about publishing cells, but thinking about them in a broader sense that again. So it's not an organism that have access. It's not doing what it is intended to do, that there are other ways to think about consent and human beings. 00;36;05;10 - 00;36;27;16 Speaker 1 Again, some of this research has shown and not just from this research. Right. And research indicates that people are not necessarily selfish. You can think about this as being collaborative. I may not be interested in myself. I'm not like that. And in fact, if you think about folks like Pablo Public, if I am if you are not free, I cannot write. 00;36;27;22 - 00;36;45;01 Speaker 1 And you can think about this with respect. Justice is deeply embedded inside. You are trapped inside of structures, all of us. So let's look at that. You might have to sum up into that. That's good as the scientist, because folks don't want to farm to my research, although really humanities and sciences come from the same source in the Enlightenment. 00;36;45;09 - 00;37;13;12 Speaker 1 It's all about the human good, like science and such, in times when not separate things. Enlightenment 1 to 1, funding from God for the good. If you're willing to do your fantastic research and research doing the work for other ends, all part of the same boat. So back to I would say incentives as well. Love thy neighbor. If I were to say. 00;37;13;27 - 00;37;14;02 Speaker 2 What. 00;37;14;21 - 00;37;15;07 Speaker 1 You that. 00;37;15;18 - 00;37;21;02 Speaker 2 I would push back on that just a little bit too. But it's far a little bit intellectually. 00;37;21;02 - 00;37;21;25 Speaker 1 There's food. 00;37;23;25 - 00;37;24;01 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00;37;24;23 - 00;37;43;24 Speaker 2 So if you want to go back to light moments and think about what is being generated at the time we, see Alchemy Austria does that actually helps humanity and really the two sciences that are tough and that's what gets the most funding are the ones that heat billions of people and develop new drugs and they solve lots of issues. 00;37;44;00 - 00;37;56;22 Speaker 2 And I've never seen a book that doesn't contain data being tested that helped people themselves necessarily. So there's no numbers to it then it's. 00;37;56;26 - 00;38;00;29 Speaker 1 Oh, number two, number. 00;38;00;29 - 00;38;01;06 Speaker 2 Yes. 00;38;03;11 - 00;38;09;16 Speaker 1 We can continue to define. We will. But I know one had a question about that. 00;38;09;16 - 00;38;33;13 Speaker 2 I have a question because I'm interested in and think about my my future research. I'm so very concerned about, you know, the tipping point. We're almost there, you know, 1.5 Celsius. Right. So I knew that we would generate a lot of data. I mean, I'm a journalist with knowledge, climbing knowledge, some data that I myself to go I support of climate action. 00;38;33;20 - 00;38;56;20 Speaker 2 So I'm thinking about the gap between, you know, knowledge and action, which is what I want to do for my sister is top my future research. So I have seen each of you. I mean, they have, you know, a lot, you know, webinars are fantastic. They have, you know, they have having the science and stuff that's about these webinars every year, which is very good because they are trying to reach it. 00;38;56;20 - 00;39;23;27 Speaker 2 Is having enough science and social social gap. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, you know, what is the idea what is a picture can talk about you know how how are you going to bridge the gap between the knowledge that data knowledge and action. Yeah maybe you could tackle the action. Well, and then I could come in after this 3/1. 00;39;23;27 - 00;39;55;17 Speaker 2 Okay. Okay. So for those who don't know, American Geophysical Union is a 25,000 person conference in which geoscientists across all the spectrum from climate and crowd sphere to mineralogy, volcanology, seismic and biogeochemistry all come together. And this large forum to that understand exchange information. And they're really trying to move away from a lot of geoscience. And the last year, actually, with every big news now, the Department of Energy Science, she runs it. 00;39;55;17 - 00;40;17;25 Speaker 2 The director for that we were talking about helicopter research and AGU is full of some of the worst colonial type helicopter researchers as you know, they sit at MIT or Harvard or other institutions, the United States, and then they, you know, grab data from elsewhere, don't bring in collaborators from those other nations and then take their data and analysis on it. 00;40;18;04 - 00;40;38;28 Speaker 2 So so that's one of the big issues I have with that is that they, you know, they perpetuating it and recently, the National Science Foundation under a science director who tried to push back against a lot of this helicopter research. And you need to work with the indigenous communities there to develop actual questions rather than your pet project that you see because they have actual knowledge. 00;40;38;28 - 00;41;00;11 Speaker 2 And from being there about what's changing and you're perceptive perceptions about what has changed, you may not actually want what's the issue there. So so we're trying to tackle that. And you probably saw some excellent talks there and probably was powered by this helicopter research, colonial research, where I come in, I take that data of mine and bring it back to my institution. 00;41;01;08 - 00;41;27;12 Speaker 2 But getting back to the power aspect is that how do we get the community to how do they become, you know, partners rather than just participants? They are trying to fund and provide money toward the communities so that they have some agency also that they're helping to shape these questions. So, of course, you have researchers with ulterior motives and other incentives that may not align for it. 00;41;27;12 - 00;41;50;03 Speaker 2 So it's an interesting partnership. You know, the issue of compromise that nobody wins, at least at, is to move it away from complete exploitation. So empowering the communities to make change and getting there, they need funds and capital to be able to implement change and enact things as we saw is that, you know, they're having massive water issues. 00;41;50;15 - 00;42;17;18 Speaker 2 You know, they have shared and I think, you know, like in the Arctic, you know, shared toilets, shared showers, you know, they don't have the capital money to bring in specialists or to be able to put in those kind of basic services. So by being able to pay for that while actually funding the science to make that their their home in those areas, more climate adapted is it's a tough order. 00;42;17;18 - 00;42;26;08 Speaker 2 It's a tall order, especially not to basically exploit it. So there's a lot for you to research there in. 00;42;27;11 - 00;43;11;08 Speaker 1 I think so on in one run. You have a question? Yes, I actually have a bit of an insightful question. So coming back to the point of incentivization and just like how the Western world works, I think some of this funding from Pakistan in applying to university here I as even a witness student I just felt like this need to fit into this box of being an individual on a campus who has over the years who are doing your reading and as well about the 1% and like distinguishing yourself per say and it's so specified on who you are and what you bring to the table that we forget that everything we're doing is for 00;43;11;08 - 00;43;41;13 Speaker 1 the greater good of our community. It is for humanity as a whole, but it has to be mine. It has to be one. You did this rather than the people who are as about 10% I'm doing for me. So in terms of incentivization and the individualism that comes with a capitalistic campus, you guys have gone too far because I think that's just a question so small. 00;43;41;13 - 00;44;11;17 Speaker 1 I just think it's gone too far because I look, even as a kid, as an 18 year old kid, I mean, I've done so much. I was like some people knew my name rather than like looking for the greater good of the community. Because I want see that people are not, you know, credible for their achievements, but is like credibility is really that much more important than, you know, doing something that's good for the environment, doing something that's good for nation. 00;44;11;18 - 00;44;36;02 Speaker 1 So I, I tend to believe that that incentive is very present under only capitalism and like shifting that like goal for incentivization is something we should also be focusing on that like it's fine if you're doing something and you're not like a savior in this structure. It's fine if you do something. If you're not like completely covered for it. 00;44;36;15 - 00;44;53;07 Speaker 1 It's not the end of the world. If you have done a good deed, but you're not the sole person who's going to be the end of the world of capitalism. You have to think about it in a particular kind of way. But back to the definition of the individual that I'm thinking about, the subject is one plus one. 00;44;53;28 - 00;45;24;09 Speaker 1 The world is made up of societies, made up of individuals or one can think about society, not necessarily made up of individuals, but it's in the connection of different entities, right? It's not necessarily just human beings that societies made up on one side. It's not the only one. But one thing to think about is massive. But it's also how by kind of doing work on fish, how pollution, pollution is going on. 00;45;24;27 - 00;45;52;03 Speaker 1 So how do we think about subjects, how we think about marriage? How do we think about about what is science, what kind of knowledge is produced? And so as we think about climate justice one way, do one way to kind of really open the discussion about climate justice is to think about what are the different ways in producing knowledge, what what's considered, you know, what knowledge, what's considered legitimate, what is considered legitimate science. 00;45;52;11 - 00;46;21;08 Speaker 1 And since then, there's nothing has happened since time immemorial. There's in place where you get a common thread here and I, I do call. So you mentioned the point of selfishness and it really isn't like a bad thing in my opinion. But I feel like what we do is like changing the goal rather than it's okay for people to on things like that and the human thing. 00;46;21;08 - 00;47;00;05 Speaker 1 I think so. But I'm just changing the goal from like, you know, having a sense status to like having accomplished something for a greater good. It's like something for me to step into. So Christine, you have so much to to think about and to comment on. One comment is a totally agree that it is the natural inclination to we want to to be recognized for what one contributes and awareness of and all kinds of different contributions. 00;47;00;18 - 00;47;40;28 Speaker 1 And there's a movement and something called the credit taxonomy, which is contributor role taxonomy and it recognizes many, many different types of contributions to the scientific enterprise. And I love it. I promote it. I look for platforms that integrate the different roles and or get the the researcher identifier being one of them where you can add your work and add the role you play in in contributing to that work. 00;47;40;28 - 00;48;19;07 Speaker 1 So I just want to call out that as a way of recognizing a whole range of contributions, the selfishness aspect. And then another side that in talking with colleagues and the the Nelson memo and the upcoming requirement that not only the publication be made open, but that the data be made publicly available, talking with some colleagues, hearing about some classic research and this comes to the political part right? 00;48;19;07 - 00;49;02;28 Speaker 1 That it's not it's it's recognition, but it's also like if I put my data out there, what if it's what if if there's malfeasance applied to that data, it's it's selfish, but it's also a protective inclination to protect that data from being misused by capitalist colonialists, whatever entity and. You know, I've heard that perspective, too, and it gives me sympathy for the tension of sharing and and also wanting to it. 00;49;02;28 - 00;50;09;19 Speaker 1 It goes to that that rigor, you know, you put it out there and then you also have to be prepared to monitor and defend it in a way. And that's a tremendous amount of energy and engagement. The final thing I wanted to ask is about peer review and your incentives and the power dynamics are so real. Also monitoring open peer review and Eli, which is just announced that it's moved to publishing Preprints Preprints, but also publishing all reviews, publishing everything that it receives with the open review and standardized kind of elements of that review in terms of incentives, like do you see how do you view open peer review as a potential solution or a 00;50;09;19 - 00;50;59;13 Speaker 1 way to address some of the power political dynamics that reinforce our systems that we work in, that that marginalized people have are jumping a little bit? Because what I'm just saying was talking about punitive. You're right. Again, as I'm being told constantly, it varies and it's a community. It's going to be for a long time. And really the best thing that I've done in my professional life and most of my life in the last five years has been being part of editorial content because we are very as a community, very, very sensitive issues and it peer that it gets go to a series of peers that even when it does that you have to be 00;50;59;13 - 00;51;21;25 Speaker 1 aware of other issues you know, because it's going to go to graduate students. There's more pressure on them and more time who's going to do the work. And then we talk about the responsibility of somebody writes a review that is particularly nasty, demoralizing. What is the role of the editor? You don't want to censor somebody saying what would they do then? 00;51;21;25 - 00;51;52;23 Speaker 1 What do we do? Choose so again. So one element of it, like I'm not part of addressing your idea. I mean, short answer is that there's no system that's going to actually debate these issues. It's just not there is no silver bullet that's going to fix it. But some of reason, which is that this journal is how do you think about those particular issues, how to curate database of reviewers? 00;51;53;02 - 00;52;14;16 Speaker 1 We focus on it in terms of collective in terms of the editorial board so that it goes beyond the same narrow set of books. So again, it's issues that we are very attentive to be very attentive to the guidelines that we give both the authors and the reviewers saying that here are some of the things we're looking for. 00;52;15;29 - 00;52;43;02 Speaker 1 That's what they should be attentive to. And again, I'd say that in the five years that I have been doing this, there may have been maybe one review that was not nasty. But on the other side, when reviewers do feedback that says, now this is good work, but you're not paying attention to some key elements of a fantastic, data driven people on migration that didn't take any attention to race or gender neutral. 00;52;43;04 - 00;53;15;20 Speaker 1 The offer that often it's the senior most established authors. I'm going to write back a very nasty note saying I'm an expert on this field, talk to you, tell you that these are things that I have happened. So again, it's just it's a constant collective upset. And we started by basically talking from interacting parts of cool. 00;53;17;04 - 00;53;46;09 Speaker 2 Yeah. So what's wrong with you? What do you get? So one aspect is that. So I showed the increase in the number of biogeochemistry related papers. So one aspect is that is it increasing because over that time span we went from 5 billion to 7 billion people and we've created, you know, access and developing nations to publish more so that there are more scientists out there, that we're now past a linear increase and now we're on the exponential power increase, the number of articles. 00;53;46;21 - 00;54;09;27 Speaker 2 Is that why there's so many more articles, or is it that we have this perverse incentivization where every scientist needs to publish their art up? Or I'm publishing 4 to 7 or eight papers every year, you know. Yeah. So it's like is that I'm a product of the system. I know the system. And that's, that's essentially the, the kind of it's not okay to publish one really good paper a year. 00;54;09;27 - 00;54;37;02 Speaker 2 It's like you need to do a lot as much as you can if you really want to be a academic that's like competitive at the highest levels. So that's, that's just true. Like if you have one publication as a when you graduate, you're probably not going to be competitive in the science and science sections. So there's that perverse action where you need to publish a lot and by creating a lot of there's a lot of stuff to read and a lot of is not great or good. 00;54;37;02 - 00;54;58;06 Speaker 2 And that means that that is a burden on all of the editors for every journal. So I'm an editor, a journal. So, you know, we get lots of submissions that's just like, nope, they're not going to set it up. The reviewers sent out to reviewers. Everyone we find vibrant for people to read. So then there's all people that we're asking to do unpaid labor to read these articles. 00;54;58;14 - 00;55;17;25 Speaker 2 And if you multiply that for every one article I submit, then you have a lot of people that are having to review a lot so that that means you get lower quality reviews. You get people who have balanced because they're angry too that there are ten papers that are saying the same thing. That's maybe not what they agreed and the maliciousness that pops up every once in a while. 00;55;17;25 - 00;55;46;02 Speaker 2 Words like I don't it. So it's that I don't believe your data. It's like right there are I don't even like look at the data. So there's some of that maliciousness now when it comes to open access, public publishing and open peer review, my first experience was and it was with the European Geophysical Union and it's like, okay, we're going to publish this open editorial, so pay us $3,000 now and then. 00;55;46;07 - 00;56;04;24 Speaker 2 Hopefully I'll make it through with you and you get published. What you look 50,000. It's not officially published in the journal. It's going to be in your preprints. Yes. So if at that method it required a lot of like this, you know, leap of faith and I think they moved that. Now, once it officially accepted that, they'll pay for it. 00;56;04;24 - 00;56;21;20 Speaker 2 But, you know, as a scientist, that means that you're putting out your figures and your data for everyone to read is not technically, officially published. And that's okay. In a number of fields like physics, it's mine, like the archives and my archive. They love that stuff. Like put it out there and like lesbianism and eventually paper comes out. 00;56;21;29 - 00;56;54;04 Speaker 2 But as geoscientists we definitely don't do that. I think that there is a push to try and have this Preprints makes up until then that you're not going to get you know, scooped up that you think it's probably unlikely they won't be able to read the papers as efficiently. But the one thing that us as academics are really bad at is that we can pontificate and you come up with any terrible situation that maybe my soil data is going to be used by Dava to then learn how to microwave soils and and turn their fields into glass so that they can't feed themselves. 00;56;54;14 - 00;57;13;02 Speaker 2 That, you know, there's all these worst case scenarios. There's someone at Dartmouth who's probably thought about that, that they can just dump salt on your fields. That's what they did. So there is that garbage that we've already know how to destroy is very strong. So that that is always going to be an issue and you're not going to always have one. 00;57;13;02 - 00;57;25;15 Speaker 2 That's not our data there. And yeah, and even if there might be that balance, right, because there's always now that's unfortunate part about being in the world that we're falling. 00;57;25;25 - 00;57;57;05 Speaker 1 Apart and unfortunately it's maybe unfortunate. But again, as I listen listen to Justin now, more like you did this. And I think that's also why so many women as a scientist, I mean, my department scientist, I get that many in science. It doesn't need attribution for me. It clearly needs to change. And then you can have a discussion in one place, but then one is not necessarily that the moment. 00;57;57;14 - 00;58;10;22 Speaker 1 Why is it understood that four or five people a year is better than one? And again, I'm not necessarily saying that one is enough, but why is there not even a discussion than one. 00;58;11;05 - 00;58;13;04 Speaker 2 Five as big as the one? 00;58;13;04 - 00;58;28;04 Speaker 1 But why is that? Why is one of the why is more like yeah, I mean there is business these things are actually subjective. It's like saying a person is better than somebody who's hard to find something which I disagree. 00;58;29;19 - 00;58;33;01 Speaker 2 Well, world leaders typically I call it says that humans are. 00;58;33;14 - 00;58;37;10 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. 00;58;37;26 - 00;58;40;13 Speaker 2 No. And in our general Western society. 00;58;40;26 - 00;59;16;05 Speaker 1 No, I this it's also generalizations that don't work. Are we really like from people you colonize people the superstars. Your brains are women. We're not supposed to be human because we have you draw. Nope. And finally, according to this, more than I mean, very good. Okay, now I'm reading again. I also have two students from class that really are part of our mass. 00;59;16;05 - 00;59;50;03 Speaker 1 One thing, and that is thank you for you said something and I just got lost. So can you explain that phrase on your slides? Social production necessarily silently depends on social reproduction. I just don't understand what that means. Simple example. Okay, tell you what you were talking about. Credit stolen, right? At a very basic level. We were that if people didn't feed us, if we didn't have clean clothes. 00;59;50;29 - 01;00;22;07 Speaker 1 So social production and all production and social contact and social function, anything that we produced and that's knowledge, whether it's clothes, anything that you produce silently depends on invisible. It depends on reproduction, not reproduction. I don't mean just producing things, but somebody needs to wash the clothes, somebody needs to wash. And that work is always there's an invisible, tastic, invisible, undervalue them again. 01;00;22;27 - 01;00;42;22 Speaker 1 So does everybody who's very popular. These values that we set up in the 1960s, there are a bunch of social problems we're talking about. The religious right is not a way to think about is wages a good way to capture value? All the stuff that you do still goes into a particular system. How does one think about these issues? 01;00;43;03 - 01;01;07;21 Speaker 1 But the issue of social reproduction? Think about the work that librarians do. The kind of stuff that's happening over here like sexual reproductive work happens all the time, but that work is considered irrelevant. It's not scientific, it's not really work. So a lot of us piggyback on work. That is, if it didn't happen, right? Yeah, we couldn't do Justin couldn't write four or five papers on most. 01;01;07;22 - 01;01;12;17 Speaker 1 Somebody who's happened. Justin who confirms, Oh, Justin, I'll do X, let's just. 01;01;12;29 - 01;01;13;05 Speaker 2 Get. 01;01;15;12 - 01;01;48;13 Speaker 1 So invisible labor, not just in invisible, undervalued natural lives like unrecognized, unrecognized in a variety of different ways. I can complain to the students like that. Who do? Students people go to to ask for that kind of care. What I'm really that's typical for next century in the sciences do in the humanities which professor have we're going to go to to offer an extension right thinking I'm going to be something that they think that too is part of sexual reproduction. 01;01;48;20 - 01;02;39;20 Speaker 1 Who is supposed to be understanding? I'm supposed to be understanding. I'm not supposed to be the person I want because. Because I don't know. Because I'm a woman and I don't. And that thank you so much that actually having given your comments on social reproduction, what's your viewpoint of the UMass Chennai Belonging Initiative? Some of the Karen I mean, know you have so you've also mentioned that open open science is not as widespread in your field, that you'd. 01;02;39;21 - 01;02;41;24 Speaker 2 Like your books, editors on journals. 01;02;42;09 - 01;02;45;01 Speaker 1 And you both seem to have different styles. 01;02;45;01 - 01;02;45;14 Speaker 2 Of. 01;02;45;24 - 01;02;57;04 Speaker 1 Presenting your views to the world. Are you do the hearings, what have you, what can you recommend or having these conversations with someone who is not receptive. 01;02;57;04 - 01;02;58;25 Speaker 2 To an open. 01;02;58;25 - 01;03;00;15 Speaker 1 Framework and the necessity. 01;03;00;15 - 01;03;01;12 Speaker 2 Of sharing? 01;03;02;10 - 01;03;41;23 Speaker 1 Have you changed minds? Have you? Can you give advice? So, I mean, I don't know if I've changed my I certainly changed my mind. And again, that is why I find it's useful and informed conversations useful. And I've changed my mind about things that have been deeply attached to. So I think and sometimes I have maybe more times to that I haven't changed my mind. 01;03;41;23 - 01;03;59;07 Speaker 1 But having those conversations with people who have different positions forces me, not forces. And that's why we have peer reviews. That's why we have not, which is that I can clarify my position. That's why I like coming to forums like this because it's like, you know, how often on the technical university this is what our life is like. 01;03;59;09 - 01;04;25;26 Speaker 1 It's not what I get to do. This is not so. So, I mean, I don't think that I have a model. I really don't I don't believe one size fits all. But you have to just keep trying. And here is for me, my style is you have to keep trying and you have to have fun what is hard about a lot of the work is that it's not fun. 01;04;26;07 - 01;04;54;10 Speaker 1 But if I'm not having fun, then why do it? I can't. I mean, I can do all kinds of stuff. If I'm having fun. If I'm not having fun, then maybe it's time to again. I can't get straight answers. I can be straight, but some family you can change your family to some some people you're not the person to have that conversation. 01;04;54;29 - 01;05;21;27 Speaker 1 Partners don't even but that's that's a different so I suppose first is developing my respect for another person whoever that person wants to produce even if it disagree with you. In fact, whatever. So that again goes back to conversation, respect kind of notions that we have in our head to talk to about people. And so it takes a lot of time, but it's completely without guarantees. 01;05;22;22 - 01;05;58;21 Speaker 1 So this is another perspective I would normally have to continue talking about and as somebody who teaches, I have it's deeply humbling to teach because because I've been saying the same thing all semester long. But oftentimes at the end of the semester, the students repeat to me what they already knew when they came into the classroom. And whatever it is that I've said has not stopped yet, I get in this class forever. 01;05;59;13 - 01;06;20;27 Speaker 1 So so again, not the straight answer to your question, but sort of like, yeah, I'm again doing it in collective, but I find when you read clearly I'm not the person to be saying whatever it is that needs to be said and I just need to operate in some somewhere in some other places I can do that. So yeah, and food and drink content. 01;06;20;27 - 01;06;38;22 Speaker 2 Well, I think really briefly that if you think about the scientists that are like the senior ones right now, they were these in the late eighties and early nineties and their articles that were reading were hard copy, right? They had to be in the library. There's no stealing data unless you put the ruler out there and you did a calculation to try and take their data from the closet. 01;06;39;03 - 01;07;01;11 Speaker 2 So they never even really in the option to put out data until the Internet really made things available, which was, you know, in geosciences, you know, but we're not technologists. We were thinking about the future. So in their minds, they never understood the importance of taking data and metadata and storing it. Oh, you're going to find a data file or a folder in their data. 01;07;01;24 - 01;07;24;27 Speaker 2 So it's up to and fortunately with this entered generational disparities and issues that we have to the younger scientists we have to shake off. And I think we're realizing that it's like, oh, this isn't available online. Like what I'm going to what am I going to do with this tablet? This tablet essentially that they use and lose all their scientists, their data will eventually be digitized or kind of go the way the dodo which which is, you know, that's how it goes. 01;07;24;29 - 01;07;47;25 Speaker 2 The data comes and goes. But essentially it's up to the younger scientists to be able to do. And I feel like they recognize the value they have to go through that data. And as soon as the university culture recognizes that good curious data is another self publication, and I think that will change that. How natural science is leverage as far as the document curation? 01;07;47;25 - 01;08;23;12 Speaker 1 Curation is talked about in this building. It's an example for the curation of data. I actually want to ask the closing question, which is very related and some thinking about your role as educators at researchers and educators. And it's not just me. What do you say people don't leave in open, right? It's that how are the both of you teaching your students to be good participants in the open? 01;08;23;12 - 01;08;40;07 Speaker 1 Right. So what are you how are you? What are you teaching about? Curation, about your metadata, about the standards you're using or about the way you're putting your your papers out there and how to carry on to help accelerate this research. You actually have an out there and available. 01;08;41;10 - 01;09;02;05 Speaker 2 Yeah so definitely for students that are working at researchers in my lab that they actually learn about that because we you know, it's part of our life what we need to do for storing our data and to repositories and meeting the obligations of our funders so they all learn about that and I to it for undergraduates that are working, they learn about that a lot. 01;09;02;05 - 01;09;24;05 Speaker 2 But if you're an in my like don't even have time curriculum to mention that and one of my honors colloquium we do cover what is peer reviewed a great great great literature versus the non peer reviewed non curriculum to ensure that this is out there. I don't know that people have any pop up papers yet, so I wish I did more. 01;09;24;05 - 01;09;24;28 Speaker 2 But yeah. 01;09;26;02 - 01;09;27;10 Speaker 1 I do. 01;09;29;15 - 01;10;03;28 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think again, we're starting discussions in a very different language, really do a mission to have a mission justice. And so in some ways we're all students. You must take science lessons like because a lot of them don't want to take science classes or whatever and it's just like, so take science classes with data. Usually humanities and social science took me a long time to realize that when does a typical student skip it? 01;10;04;11 - 01;10;29;21 Speaker 1 They won't read it. And it's like, that's a form of nutrition too. It's just like we don't, like, don't, don't give don't give up, you know? I mean, I'm not somebody who because I'm easily sensitive, like learn to read it. So again, we come from different angles. The institutions of justice are always at the forefront in your free time talking about. 01;10;30;25 - 01;10;50;16 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah so much like really to think about and to just kind of mull over and bring together notes that have quite a presence for you. So I appreciate the fact that all of us here today, we appreciate it. Obviously protecting. 01;10;51;12 - 01;10;51;16 Speaker 2 To. 01;10;52;10 - 01;10;59;23 Speaker 1 Make sense. It's not it's like like in high school. This is down here.